It's All About Healing

If Bullying Is Legal, What Protects Your Mind, with Andy Regal Part 2: Episode 363

• Robin Black

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Bullying at work doesn’t always look like a headline—most of the time, it looks like subtle power plays, isolation, and quiet harm that never makes the news. We sit down with veteran TV executive and anti-bullying advocate Andy Regal to unpack why abuse of power thrives in modern workplaces, how the legal system leaves targets exposed, and what it actually takes to protect your peace without abandoning your career. From Hollywood controversies to everyday offices, the patterns are the same: charismatic high performers shielded by proximity to power, HR constrained by structure, and loyal employees paying the price with their health.

Andy shares lived experience from major newsrooms and production floors, plus the evidence he’s gathered while writing Surviving Bully Culture. We explore the difference between illegal harassment and still-legal bullying, the business costs of “brilliant jerks,” and the psychological fallout that lingers as PTSD, insomnia, and shame. You’ll hear practical steps to regain control: documenting patterns, setting firm boundaries, moving key conversations to writing, finding allies, and building a discreet exit strategy before you need it. We also talk healing—why mental health days matter, how community support reduces isolation, and how small wins, exercise, sleep, and creativity rebuild agency.

There’s hope here. Real leadership looks like empathy under pressure, not humiliation. Your value isn’t measured by a bully’s approval, and your future isn’t defined by one toxic team. If you’ve ever cried on the way to work or questioned your worth because of someone else’s behavior, this conversation offers clarity, tools, and a path forward. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help more people find this resource.

To reach Andy - https://www.andyregal.com

Be sure to visit my youtube channel, like and subscribe: It's All About Healing Podcast - YouTube

Website: https://www.itsallabouthealingpodcast.com 

If you're ready to talk, we're ready to listen! 

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SPEAKER_01:

Welcome back, listeners. I'm Robin Black, and this is It's All About Healing Podcast. And we have again with us again for part two, Mr. Andy Regal. I'm super, super excited. Andy, how are you?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm doing great, Robin. And thanks again for this opportunity.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem at all. So we're definitely going to kind of stay on track with the bullying in the workplace as well. But I kind of wanted to just touch base on where we're kind of where do we even leave off, Andy? Because I know you said you still had a few things to add as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so much to talk about. And our first conversation was really productive and helpful. And I hope your audience felt the same way. I certainly did, because I learned from every person I talked to, you're a bully victim. You're an expert in that respect as well. And it is all about healing. So, and and and the the 40 minutes or 45 minutes we did last time went so fast. So I'm so thrilled to have the opportunity to continue the conversation. I guess there's a lot to talk about. In fact, uh, as we talked about off-air a little bit, Stranger Things is the phenomenon on Netflix. And for those that haven't watched it, it is probably the most celebrated television show that exists out there today. It's a sci-fi show about a group of kids fighting a horrible monster who's um trying to basically take over the world. And uh I'm not even a sci-fi fan particularly, but my kids got me into it. And it and the the production values are incredible. Now, you might be wondering if you're listening to this podcast, why are Robin and Andy going into detail about a sci-fi Netflix hit when you're supposed to be talking about healing and bullying? Well, okay, I'll get to that now. In real life, two of the primary stars, a female star who's a young woman, and a male star who's a middle-aged man, the female star has accused, in real life, not in the show, not in the script, in real life of bullying her in a very harsh and terrible way. It's alleged, and and it's been ongoing. There's been some talk about they've reconciled or whatever, but but it became a big issue in the fall when this came out, and it be and became a big issue because people are so interested in the show, and you feel bad because there's this big hit, and these two characters are in a lot of scenes together. Absolutely. Obviously, there's some significant discord such that it even made the press. So the reason that I'm interested in this is because it did make headlines all over the place. Everybody covered this. It really wasn't determined what exactly happened, and we're not sure how it was uh reconciled or solved. Uh, they've continued to tape the shows and so forth. But it really got me thinking a lot about how we see bullying in the workplace make headlines when it's a famous director on Broadway, let's say, and that happens. Or in this case, a big TV show. Or we've seen it with like Ellen de Generis with her show. You may recall, they had all kinds of issues. Rosie O'Donnell was a talk show host. There was allegedly bullying on her set, toxic environment. So we hear about it with these celebrities. And my point is each time I wonder why the then the conversation doesn't go to the real world, so to speak, to say, well, if this is happening in Hollywood and it's making headlines and people are interested in it, why? Well, one, it's celebrities, but two, I think people relate to it, right? It's a relatable story. We've all, most of us, had experience with some form of incivility or degradation in the workplace. If it wasn't relatable, I don't think people would care so much. But they're like, wow, it's happening to celebrities and it's happened to me. And so my issue is, and what I'm trying to do, and you're doing with your wonderful podcast, we're trying to bring more attention and dialogue to this issue. But what's happened is when these headlines are made, it then just goes away. And the work that I'm trying to do in my advocacy in anti-workplace bullying is to say, I'm glad to see that headlines are made in Hollywood or on Broadway and other places with celebrities when this happens. But I want to give notice to and attention to the fact that this happens to millions and millions of people on a daily basis. And that's why I'm here and I appreciate the opportunity to spread that message on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And so, what I was kind of confused because when I was reading, it stated here that bullying is still legal in the workplace. So help me kind of understand that and elaborate on that.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Happy to because it because people are so confused by this. And this is one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about this issue, because it's really an interesting issue. Because I'll step back a moment and talk about the fact that there are civil rights codes, right? Uh sexual harassment is against the law. Discriminating against a handicapped person is against the law. Discriminating against a person of color or a person who's like 50 plus, you know, age discrimination. These are things that are against the law. Now, they're often hard to prove, and we talked, we touched on this a little bit in our last conversation. Right. Um, but it's it bears repeating, so we're very clear on this issue. There aren't that many bosses that are going and saying, hey, old man, get out of here. We don't like old people, or hey, hey, and I'll use it quickly, hey N-word, you know, or hey, hey, uh cripple. You know, these are inappropriate, horrible things, and we do have civil rights codes against that. But most bosses, I mean, if you do that, you deserve to be sued and worse. Right. But most bosses know much better than to say things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

It's much more subtle. The fact is, abusing somebody, bullying them in the workplace is completely legal. And the way we differentiate is, and the way I define it, is it's repeated, targeted harm that has no benefit to the employee or the business. No benefit. And that's the real harm that's done in people, as we talked about last time. People end up having to go to a psychiatrist, end up with physical problems, emotional problems, they end up in the hospital. You and I talked about the fact that people end up, if they can even get to work, they cry on the way to work because they're so unhappy. And these are people like you and me, who are devoted and productive and loyal and just want to do a good job, and yet the circumstances, for whatever reason, work against us. So that's that's the harm that's done. And yet people end up in the hospital and they have no recourse. Right. And that's why, again, when your show is all about healing, there are millions of people, literally millions of people, suffering because they're they're they have no psychological safety. And by that I mean every day they go to work wondering what's gonna happen to me today.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And and they they lose popularity, and everybody knows this is happening. So then people avoid you because you're kind of like the plague. You're concerned about not being able to pay your bills because you might lose your job. Absolutely. You so it's so damaging, so hurtful, so harmful, and there's no benefit to the business. In fact, we can talk about this more. It hurts businesses to do this because they do it, people target the best people, so that's why something must be done. And it's and 2026 is the year where we need to make progress, just like again, I'm not comparing necessarily, I'm just saying, just like Black Lives Matter, the Me Too movement, it was wrong, it was horrible, and it was way too accepted, you know. And finally, people stood up and said, Enough, no more. And that's what we want to begin that process in terms of people being treated properly. Doesn't mean everybody has to be nice all the time, doesn't mean bosses can't yell and scream. We all have bad days. This is about repeated harm, and people need to have some kind of recourse when they're being damaged.

SPEAKER_01:

And so when it says that it's legal in the workplace, is that just in Hollywood or is that overall as a whole?

SPEAKER_00:

In Europe and Canada, it's a little bit better, but there are no laws against mistreatment of people in the workplace in the United States. No laws whatsoever. So now and the problem is that many of the bully bosses, and I don't know if this is a case for you, but you know, the people that do this have power. That it's an abuse of power. That's what bullying is. Simply stated, an abuse of power. And look, there's no way we're gonna change workplaces are hierarchical, right? Right. There's the intern, and then there's the CEO, and everything in between. And so people have power now. In many cases, they've earned it, and many bully bosses are quite good at what they do. Yeah, and we call them, Robin, we call them brilliant jerks. These are people who are maybe the CEO, the number two or three or four person, and they feel emboldened because either they're the top person or they're very tight with the top person, and that gives them leverage to abuse their power. And they may be great at what they do, Robin. They they may be good salespeople, they may be great in a meeting, they're often very charismatic, yeah, but they're hurting so many of us, and they're damaging the business, and so they shouldn't be allowed to get away with really bad behavior, and and there's a spectrum of bad behavior, we can talk about that too, but they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it simply because they have power and they can get away with it. And many and far too many companies and organizations allow it to happen, and it's gotta stop.

SPEAKER_01:

And I I 100% agree with you, Andy, because just to kind of share quickly about my situation that happened a few years ago. There was a sexual harassment claim that I filed, and I had to, it was, I believe it was someone it there the company's lawyer was there, the superintendent, I believe, or I think she was the deputy chief or something, it was some name that she had. And then the head of HR, the president of HR, was in this room together. And I kept asking myself, because after I filed the sexual harassment claim, the gentleman who did it was still in the in the same workplace with me, sitting side by side the very next day. So it was extremely, extremely uncomfortable. And I'm like, what is going on? So I go down to the office and then I speak to the head of HR and I said, Well, I'm just a little curious as to why no one has contacted me and why he's here with me. This is very uncomfortable. He knows that I filed the claim. What is going on? And he was just like, Well, we have no reason to talk to you. And I didn't understand that. And I was just like, Well, how is it that you don't have any reason to speak to me? And he said, Well, we did get your claim, we saw the video, and when we watched the video, we didn't feel it was that egregious. And I'm just sitting here, like, are you seriously blaming the victim? And then for you know, and and not to be kind of sexist, but to have a woman in the room with me while this man is telling me this, and I'm just sitting here bawling my eyes out, and they're just like, Robin, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, he just downplayed the entire thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, and it's true in bullying cases as well as sexual harassment cases. First of all, in most cases, HR is not your friend, and I wish HR was your friend, and I have some thoughts on that. We we because HR, how do those people get paid? They paid, they're getting paid by checks signed by the CEO, usually or the CFO, power players, and so they're gonna go up against those people to protect you. No, they're gonna protect the business, right? And so, one of the things we need to do is give HR departments autonomy and authority to investigate these claims in a way where there aren't repercussions against them, and they don't have that now. So going to HR, unfortunately, is is uh unfortunately usually useless, or worse, you know, and the fact that they the fact that they didn't take your claims seriously is is absolutely abhorrent. And and and most of us, and I don't know how how far you took it, it's very difficult to hire a lawyer in the hopes of getting some kind of settlement. Most of us don't have enough money to do that. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars just to hire a lawyer, let alone figure out whether you're gonna win your case. And so that's the horror of this kind of stuff. You're not believed or you're gaslit. Oh, you know, you're being a little over-dramatic. And and and I'm so sorry that happened to you, Robin. And and it shouldn't happen to anybody. And again, you you could take it further. In the case of bullying, they'll often do that. They'll say, Well, we looked into it and and we think it's it's gonna be fine. You know, just go back to work. You know, they don't take it smoothly. And here you are in a horrible circumstance with all kinds of psychological problems, and and then you're sitting next to this person who's been doing this. Terrible story happens all the time. And and again, there are steps that we can take. There are laws being suggested. What I'm arguing for is that at the top of companies, they create bylaws and standards of conduct that have real teeth so that everybody understands what's appropriate. And so then you would be able to say, This is what this person did to me. He touched me or he spoke to me in an inappropriate way. And you could see in the bylaws how that's unacceptable, and that therefore there must be repercussions to that person, not just where they kind of look at it and think about it. And, you know, this guy's the the, you know, he might even be the rainmaker. He might be the guy that makes the most, brings in the most money. That doesn't matter because he's doing harm to the business, right? So, again, that's a very common circumstance for both people who are sexually harassed in the workplace and also bullied in the workplace, that that there's there's no real follow-through, and the person with the power comes out ahead. And by the way, and there's data on this, what happens most often is, and I'd be interested to understand whether you left, but most often the victim ends up leaving either of their own accord because they can't take it, and and not not because they got a great new job, but they often leave because they have to leave for their for their own self-preservation, or the company gets rid of them and finds a way to get get rid of them.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, it was like they were trying to drive me out. I became a target. Oh, yeah. They were they were it was bad. And then I tried to go to the EEOC and she said the same thing you said. It's very hard to prove. It's hard to prove when you're being bullied like that because it's they're they're not it's not discriminatory, right? You can't really pinpoint what it is that they're doing, even though you know that they're forcing you out. Once you once I did that, it's like I became the victim and I became targeted, and everyone was hating on me. Like, let's try to get Robin out of here. So I end up living on my own.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And and I appreciate you talking about this, and I feel the same way that it's so it's such a taboo subject. Why? Because so many of us feel that whenever we tell this kind of story, that the people who are listening, even if it's good friends, family, I always got the feeling, and maybe you do too, that people are gonna go, like Andy. Now look, I'm sure that they do that. You must have done something wrong to not necessarily not not to be sexually harassed. Nobody should be sexually harassed. I'm I'm talking about bullying now or or misreatment, but I want to be clear on that. But not that anybody deserves to be bullied, but that the the that the boss treated you this way, or you you must have done something. And I can honestly tell you, sitting here, I did nothing. Right. And I talked to hundreds of bullying victims, and yeah, none of us are infallible. I'm not saying that I was a perfect employee. What I'm saying was I was a great employee, hardworking. We can't have a perfect workplace, and we don't expect perfection from our bosses, nor should they expect perfection from us. The point is that when, and if you're not a good employee, by the way, you still don't deserve to be bullied, but if you can't get it together, they should politely and calmly work to have you leave the company. Nothing wrong with that. I've let people go. I was an executive producer in television in New York for 25 years. I was an executive producer from the age of 32, and I had to let people go. I never did it cavalierly, even if they weren't good employees. Um, if you've ever lost your job, you never do that to somebody cavalierly because it's the worst feeling in the world to head home without a job. It's awful. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_01:

I can only imagine. And Andy, can you tell us what exactly is a TV production executive? Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so I worked at major cable networks like CNBC, I was an executive producer, MSNBC The News Network. I worked at a cable network as vice president of original programming called Court TV, uh, where we covered real trials. I covered the OJ Simpson trial and the Jeffrey Dahmer trial, some of the biggest trials of the last 25 years or so. And I was also global head of video at the Wall Street Journal. So I've I've I've had good jobs. I was promoted in each of those jobs, but in every role I had, I found bullies. Bullies found me. Yeah. Um, yeah and I'd love to tell you a quick anecdote, if I may, Robin. I I heard from a victim. I have a Facebook group, which I'd love for people to join if they're feeling like they're being victimized. It's it's on Facebook, it's a Facebook group called Navigating Workplace Bullying. If you search, you'll find it. And we have over 500 people there, and it's a lovely community of people who are understanding and compassionate because they're all victims of workplace bullying. I had somebody write me just yesterday who just got a new job after a horrible workplace bullying circumstance. And she wrote to me and said, you know, you've been helpful, which is I love when I'm helpful to people, but more so she was excited about the new opportunity, but also very concerned that her PTSD from previous bullying experiences would affect her in this new role. And I wrote back to her and I said, the likelihood is that you're gonna find difficult people in this job too. And that's what I found, Robin. And every time, in fact, I have a book coming out, which we mentioned in the last show, but I was gonna call my book, my title of my book, I thought it would be different. That was my first title of working title of my book, because in every job I decided I got out of that one. Now I'm starting a new job, and this time it'll be different. Yeah, you know what? This time it'll be different. Never is. I mean, there's always going to be difficult people. Always. I I defy anybody to call me up. I mean, people call me up. In fact, my daughter took took a new job recently. She's just out of college, and she was like, Everybody here is nice. Everybody's nice. It was her, it was the first few days.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so they're going to find difficult people. And what I work with with bully victims, the way I coach people, because I have a coaching business, is I don't try to solve their bully problem. I work with people on how they can adapt to the circumstance when you come across difficult, unreasonable people. And I say that very precisely. Bullies are unreasonable. And by that I mean they can't be reasoned with. And, you know, an occasional, you know, appreciation, a thank you would really be a lot. It would mean a lot. Right. Never. That conversation was never going to happen. Not going to happen. So the thing you have to do is you have to be different. And it's not about self-blame. It's about keeping perspective, about not letting the boss overtake your well-being, your self-esteem, your self-worth. And I talk a lot about, and and I I, you know, I've gotten to know you a little bit through this process, but you have a very bright light, in my view. Yeah, thank you. And those of us who are good employees and nice people, sometimes they can smell us coming. I always thought the bully boss, they knew that I would just go back and try harder. I wasn't gonna scream and yell and and and take the bully on. They don't bully those people, they bully the people that they know are just gonna go sit back down and try harder. And so so I told this woman, remember who you are. So what because in this job, it's likely if you don't, if everyone's wonderful, great, you have no problem. But I told this woman who got this new job, I said, remember who you are. So when there is a difficult person, just accept that that's on them, that's them, not you, and do your best to negotiate a circumstance, but just keep being you and don't let them overwhelm you so that you lose your joy, you lose your self-esteem, you lose your ability to shine your light on others. That's the best we can do. Um because we just as much as we'd love to, with each new job, find that utopian environment. I don't know anybody. In fact, everybody I talk to who tells me, oh, what do you do? What do you do? And I'm anti-workplace bullying, I have a book coming out and so forth. People can't wait to say, oh, just like in the case when we met, I didn't know you were a bullying victim, you're a bullying victim. Almost everybody has something where they've been treated. And again, it's along the spectrum. I ended up being depressed, having digestive problems. We talked about this last time, harmful thoughts. And I'm I'm a very successful person. I'm a and I'm also a good person. And I think I was a good boss. So it's about us understanding what's happening with these circumstances, and as painful as they are, and we may even lose our jobs over it, and the bully may win in a way that we can keep our integrity, keep our dignity, and most importantly, keep our health and our mental well-being if we know how to handle it better. Doesn't mean you're gonna be happy, doesn't mean you're gonna skip into work, can't wait, you know. But but this this notion where people are so damaged by what's happening, and I talk to them every day, that that they need recourse and they need help. And there are resources now for those of us who have gone through this.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And I really feel, Andy, because you you had mentioned the the woman who was suffering from PTSD. I really wish that they would implement mental health days, you know, at least two or three mental health days a month, you know, kind of use them, utilize them as floating holidays because it's very needed. And I really feel that a lot of people turn a blind eye towards mental health. You know, a lot of people just, you know what I mean, it goes in one ear right out the other, but it's like the severity of mental health, it it's it's damaging, it's almost crippling, as you stated before, to a lot of us, especially because we're walking around internalizing and just not saying anything. Meanwhile, we're crushed on the inside. And when we go home, it's just like you never know what's gonna happen to the person when they're outside of work.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And as we know, most of us take work home in one way, shape, or form. I mean, it may just be I have a big project and I'm bringing it home and you might have to work at home, but I mean, you're thinking about it, and maybe there's a lot of pressure on that project. But more so, if you're feeling like the boss is mistreating you, boy oh boy, do you ever bring it home. At least I certainly did, and I bet you did too. I mean, look, you were crying. I mean, it was just awful what was happening to you, Robin. And so not only are we suffering with no psychological safety, we're sitting at our cubicles, our desks, in our offices, whatever it might be, on the on the factory floor. It happened, you know, bullying is everywhere, not just Hollywood. It's in every business. And so we then bring it home with us, and we can't sleep. And and speaking of sleep, I wanted to mention something to you, which just happened to me last week. So we didn't get into it last time we spoke. So I had terrible recurring dreams of this primary bully boss that I write about in my book. I had dreams when I was in his employee, and we're talking about 20 years ago now. Yeah. When I was in his employee, I had a recurring dream, literally, this is a hundred percent truth, that we were we were both in a boiling cauldron.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

He was half man, half beast. Yeah, he was attacking me in this boiling pot, you know, and attacking me as a beast. It was horrifying, it was kind of apocalyptic. Yeah, and I had a recurring dream of him doing that to me, okay. Well, just last week I had a dream, and I dream about him quite often, and the dreams have changed over time. I don't have this like apocalyptic, apocalyptic type of dream any longer, but I had a dream last week where I was in his employee and I decided to talk to him about his behavior. Yeah, and I explained to him how the way he treats people was harmful to me. Also, and again, this is a dream, this is not real life, right? Yeah. And I'm talking to him and he's listening, and I'm saying, look, you know, it really hurts my feelings and it doesn't make me better. And I'm talking to him about, and I'm like, Yeah, you're hurting the business, and it really would build everybody up if you were more civil and more understanding. And he said, You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try harder, I'm gonna do that. Okay. Now, this this man, this bully was a bully before I met him and continued year. I I hear from people who were coming, he's still a bully, right? Yeah. So this isn't about him, it's about me. I'm healing. Yeah, look at the difference. And and again, it's been 20 years. I'm still working on healing from all this stuff. I'm I'm fine, I'm good, but I'm still processing. And that's that's how harmful and what an impact this kind of behavior has on employees. But look at that. I look at that as great progress. Look at how I'm healing. I'm now creating a positive environment, and it shows hope and healing that that I wasn't being attacked in boiling collar. I actually had a conversation with him where he agreed with me that it'd be better to not be so scornful. Yeah. Um, and so it can happen, but these things last for decades. You know, trauma, and I'm not trying to overstate it. You know, I didn't serve in a war, right? So when we talk about PTSD, I want to be very clear, I wasn't in a foxhole with bombs going off. Yeah, but it's in the literature. I'm not a psychiatrist, a psychologist. I'm I have lived experience. What I will tell you though, Robin, is I've interviewed for my book dozens of experts from around the world who look at this issue: neurobiologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, scientists, academicians, and PTSD is a part of this. And trauma, this is a trauma. Again, these people have so much authority over us, so much power over us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Keep in mind, you lose your job, you don't know when the next paycheck's coming. Right. Absolutely. And as you know, and you felt this, being part of something is integral in the human experience, right? We like to go to work, many of us, because we we like to be a part of a team, part of something bigger. And and I've worked with a lot of startups where we're trying to build a business and be successful. I love that. I love having staff. And so when you and I was ostracized, which I think is the worst and most demeaning form of bullying when when they isolate you. And and and here you I had a situation where I've been at a company for seven years, they brought in a new CEO. I wasn't part of his team because I'd been part of the old team, and they isolated me. And it was absolutely the worst feeling I've ever experienced. Yeah, that you're worthless, you're worse than worthless. And so these are not trifling matters, these are matters of huge emotional trauma. And the final thing I was gonna say about this is that I've learned from experts that trauma is lodged in long-term memory. Absolutely, right? And so, in fact, it came out, Robin, that when I was writing my book, I'm writing about these circumstances like it was yesterday. And in some cases, it was fairly recent, but in others, 10, 15, 20 years. I can remember what I was wearing. I remember the the office it happened in. I remembered whether the boss had a cigarette in his mouth or in his hand, you know. Yeah, it's it's it's right there, and and we deserve better.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. But what I love about it though, Andy, is like you stated, it's not war, but it is psychological warfare. But I love what you said that there's no psychological safety. But in regard to not having that psychological safety, at the end of the day, those who have to go through it, like you and I have, we definitely are the victims of that. But look at what comes out of that, right? That pain becomes a part of you, and then you take it and you run with it, you start thriving with it. Now you're you're a coach, you're doing that. I'm doing it, it's all about healing podcasts. It's like all these stories come together to let other people know that they're not alone. You can fight this. You don't have to sit with it alone by yourself and just internalize, internalize, internalize and causing the depression, causing the harmful thoughts and things of that nature. And it gives people an outlet to reach out to. So I think that's the good side, you know, the glass half-full approach, I guess, as to why we have to endure some of the things that we have to endure as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and life is like that, right? Yeah. And so resilience, I think, is a part of this, Robin. But and and if anything, and I really did when I started writing my book. I another working title that I had was my mediocre career in the media. Yeah. In many respects, I felt I was a failure, even though I had these kind of lofty titles and and so forth and got promoted. I I couldn't understand why my bosses didn't love me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I really, you know, why didn't they love me like my parents did? And we talked a little bit about this last time that my parents, and I was a perfect kid, no drugs, no alcohol, played sports, played a musical instrument, and they love me. And I don't think it was all performative, but you know, and so when I went into the workplace, we talked about this last time. I thought, well, if I just work harder than anybody and I'm productive and useful and helpful and a team player, the love's gonna be flowing. Right. And it's a naive way to enter the workplace, and it took me years to learn that lesson. And you know, and so another working title was my mediocre, because I really didn't feel like I had succeeded, because at every turn, somehow they decided to get rid of me. And again, even as I'm saying that, I'm thinking that your your audience is be saying, Well, you must have done something, you know, right that you didn't stay one place for 20 years. But I I I'm begging your audience to take my side in this. Um and so resilience is something, Robin. It's it's it's it's laudable, but it it's it's often unhealthy. Being resilient just tore me down. And and I'm proud of myself that I kept going. You know, I had um a professor at Ohio State University that works on stress, trauma, and resilience at Ohio State University. He's brilliant. And I quote him liberally in my book, and he said to me, He goes, Andy, you didn't you didn't turn to drugs, did you, during these years? No, didn't do that. You didn't let it affect your marriage, right? I tried not to. I wasn't always a good parent or father because I was dealing with all these things, but no. And he said, and you got for you got other jobs in your field? I did. He goes, Look at that, you were resilient, so I feel good about that. And bullying victims like yourself should feel good about being resilient, but it's often at the cost of a lot of pain and again damage to your health and well-being. And so what I would say is that you have to do what's best for you, but I don't suggest to people to confront their boss, and I also don't suggest to people just leave. And and the other thing, you know, some people say there was some advice that I came across that said, well, don't worry about being bullied because you'll get another job and and you'll never look back and think about you know that the bully has to live with themselves. Please, yeah, please. Yeah, they're not, they're not even thinking. I'll never look back. I've taught, you know, so many of us years and years later, and again, we're not debilitated, at least hopefully not years later. Some could be. You have to deal with this, you have to confront it. And I'm not one of those people that says, oh, everything happens for a reason and you'll be better off afterwards. I don't, I don't subscribe to that. None of us deserve it, but yes, to your very good point, we can survive and we can move on. I had bullying experiences, and I'll give you a great example. I had a terrible bullying experience, and I was able to move on to another television show. It was called the Dr. Keith Abloe show. We didn't talk about this last time. Dr. Dr. Keith Abloh was like Dr. Phil, it was very much kind of like a Dr. Phil type of show, and it was a psychiatrist who was gonna help people, and he and his whole thing was empathy. Yeah, let me tell you, this office and this television production team was the most toxic group of people I have ever come across. Oh my goodness, it was horrible. And so, even you know, I had because I thought, oh, I'm gonna start working for this guy. I was gonna be a senior producer on this big show, I was gonna be on NBC. And I'm gonna work for a host whose whole approach is empathy. Yeah. And so again, I thought this is perfect for me. I I don't want to go into another bullying experience, and this guy's great. Yeah, he and the other people that that that led the show were just horribly toxic.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00:

He ended up losing his license because of inappropriate behavior with his patients. And and I wouldn't be saying this because you know he could come after me, other than the fact that it was reported wider in the Boston Globe. You know, come after me. Yeah. But he it was, you know, so you you you never know what this certain you you can hope and look for an environment that's gonna be good, but it's incumbent upon us to be able to understand how to deal with it. And resilience is one way, but also these other things we've been talking about about working on your psychological safety, finding joy in life, finding the small wins at work, even under the the the bullying environment, and and and you know, whether it's music, reading, exercising, finding joy in the company of others, whatever those things are, we've got to focus on those things when things at work are really tough and unfair.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, and just the realization of you're not rooted there. You know, a lot of times we feel that there is no way out. But the thing is, it's like you're not rooted like a tree there. You you can get up and leave at any point. I mean, it's not, it's a lot easier said than done. Don't get me wrong, because I know it's not very easy to find a job, but we also have that feeling sometimes that it's like this is the end all be all. I have no choice but to deal with it. I have no choice but to stay here, stick it out, and and it'll get better. And that was the best thing I ever did was realize, you know what, I don't need this anymore. And I could just leave. And it was a thousand times better once I finally just left.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and good for you to have the fortitude to do that. And that's that's not an easy thing to do for several reasons. And I'll I'll give you my experience. First of all, I worked years to become an executive producer, and so I and I loved the work. Let me put it this to this way. I love the work. I loved being in journalism and telling great stories about the most important things going on in the world, and so I I and I love my team, uh, the people I worked with, I cared deeply for. And and so, and I like getting paid. And so I and and and and maybe most of all, Robin, I didn't want to let the bully win. Yeah, and so if I if if I walked out, you know, sitting at home wondering where the next paycheck was gonna come, I I had to weigh which is worse. And so good for you to leave. And and for some people, that's a good answer. I think that you know the best answer is if you can leave and have at least some opportunities, you start a job search. And sometime in my work coaching bully victims, I put on my kind of career guidance counselor hat as well, because I had to look for work more often than I care to admit. And so, but but I in almost every case, other than this Dr. Keith Ablo show, and actually I didn't talk about you know, people don't believe you. Somebody with the production company who knew me from a previous job came to that show to help out. She came to me and said, Andy, we know you're not the problem, even though they've treated you like the problem. And so I was vindicated for the first time. She came to me and she said, We know that you're helping and there's problems. We just want to let you know you're not the problem, you're the solution maker, and we appreciate it. So it was like, because I was a pariah. They had isolated me, they had tried to demote me and all this stuff. It's too long to get into. You could read my book and find out more. But it but it was awful. And it was like I almost cried when she came to me and said, Andy, we're in LA, we know what's happening, we're coming to New York. So once in a while, and I'm sorry that you didn't get vindication from the company that you were working at. You you deserve that and more. But we have to do what's best for us. But off in my experience, most often, I stayed uh until they said. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Because with my company, I was there for seven years. You know, I had a lot of time invested. I mean, I wasn't there for 20, but still being there for seven and having that investment in it and trying and not wanting, like you said, not wanting that bully to win. But it was like, you know what, I have to love myself first. You know, I can't sit and constantly because it's like it's like it's that self-abandonment, right? It's like that self-abandonment, is it's you pay a high price when you you you're putting yourself, you're just like, okay, I want this approval so badly, but that wanting that approval is a high price that you're paying that you you can't afford, right? You end up in debt because of all the self-abandonment. It's like I have to focus on me. I have to do what's better for me. And there is something else out there, even if it's it may take a little time to find it, but you will find that other thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and as I said, this Dr. Keith Ablo show, I thought was the bridge to something better. It ended up being a bridge because it did get me somewhere else, and then that went to something else, and that's how you have to look at it. That that it was a worse job ultimately, but you have to find that there were some good things about it. There were some good, there were some good things about it. It helped me get out of one situation, move to another. But the point I want to make here, and I think you'll appreciate this, Robin, is people say, you know, why didn't you just leave? And we've been talking about that. It's very similar. Now there's some significant dissimilarities, but of domestic violence, domestic abuse. There's a lot of similarities. In fact, I know a lot about domestic violence because my wife represents domestic violence victims. So I'm very much aware of that world. Because people say to domestic violence victims, well, why didn't you just leave? Well, there's a lot of reasons. One, you know, you got to take your kids somewhere. Two, how are you gonna pay for things? Where are you gonna go? It's not so easy just to say, oh, the this man is abusing me, so I'm gonna leave. It's a horrible circumstance to be in. And in the in the case of uh where you're being, and again, if when you're at the workplace, I'm not talking about physical abuse. None of this, none of the stuff that I'm talking about is where somebody hits you, throws a stapler at your head, uh, pushes you. Again, that's why there's laws against that. That's assault, and you can deal with the police on that. What I'm interested in is this damaging treatment, the psychological trauma that is created by this abuse that can be as harmful as somebody putting their hands on you. And so there are a lot of similarities therein, and that's part of the problem of why people don't have recourse because their lives can be ruined. It isn't the case. And I was lucky that I was able to find new jobs. Not everyone does. I've talked to so many people, and but but by the way, I I uh in the last circumstance of bullying, I the next job I had, I made 50% of what I was never recovered to the point where I was making what I was making in the previous job. And that happens to most of us. If we're if we're lucky enough to get another job, it's usually not as good as the previous one from a financial standpoint. And and many people never really recover, you know. So, and and and as a practical matter, and I had this happen, I would go on job interviews, and someone would say to me, Oh, you worked at this place, you must know so-and-so, and that might have been the bully. And then I'd be sure that they were gonna call him and say, Oh, what you know, and that he was going to talk me down. Now, I don't know that that ever happened. It probably didn't, it might have, but that bullying continues, it doesn't end the minute you leave that office, either of your own accord or because they say get out. That bully remains with you, in my case for years. But even as a practical matter, you go on the interview, interview. And I've worked with clients of mine who say, I've got a job interview. I had I had a person call me in an absolute panic. In fact, I was at a conference and I had to kind of go find a quiet place. He was in a panic because he was going to an interview and he was scared to death that the previous, because he knew it was a small kind of niche world, and he was convinced that during the interview they're gonna bring up his horrible bully boss. How is he gonna deal with that? And I it it it it this is a terrible issue, and and again, having that boss on your shoulder or renting room in your your head can happen for years and years afterwards.

SPEAKER_01:

And like you said, with the the domestic violence, and the and they say, you know, well, why didn't they leave? And the same thing with the workplace bullying, why didn't they leave? But also it, like you said, it's psychological, it's trauma, it's past trauma, it's grooming, it's being baited, it's it's a lot of things that are involved when someone who hasn't gone through it or experienced it may never understand. And that's okay, it's not for everyone to understand, but as long as the person, the victim going through it understands. And and also I believe that there shouldn't be any type of shame in being a victim, a victim of any kind. It's it's like if anything, it's an honor because we're survivors. That's the way that I see it, anyways.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. We are survivors, and and we should feel good about that, but there is so much shame involved. And I talk about shame in in the book, and I I I interviewed a gentleman by the name of Professor Yamada, he's a law professor in Boston, and he's written quite a bit about the shame involved, and he also is involved in trying to change laws. The reason I mentioned it is because we all feel that way. You and I both, and I acknowledge I felt that way all along, and that's why I didn't talk about it, and that's why this notion of you are not alone is so important. Because when you hear from other people and you understand we've been through it and it's no fault of your own. Again, let's even assume that some of us, including me and you, weren't the best employees. We made mistakes or whatever, you still don't deserve to be bullied. That that's it. Again, as I said, I don't expect the boss to be perfect all the time, but bully bosses don't apologize and they never acknowledge their own mistakes. But boy to boy, do they go after you when you make a perceived mistake? And even then, I had bully bosses where I made no mistake and they came after me. And so uh, and let me give you a more positive example, if I may, and one that I think you'll appreciate. Because you're I you know, I want to be positive about this. There is a way through. Work is hard, but we can get through it and adapt to it better. But let me give you an example because it's not all negative. As I said, we're survivors, we move on, we get other jobs, they cannot be great jobs. The most important thing that that I'm preaching, if you will, is I want everybody who hears this, and and you're an example of this, to say, I can still have a good life. Yeah, I might not have as much money, yeah, right? I might not have as much prestige. Okay, and maybe you will, maybe the next job will be better, and maybe it will provide what you enjoy your life. Life's too short. You have to you know, and and bad things are gonna happen no matter what, people are gonna get sick, loved ones are gonna die. We know this, and so while work is problematic, and it almost always is. I mean, how many people do you talk to say work's great, everything's it doesn't even without even without having a bully boss, there's all kinds of problems, right? I wish it, I wish it were so at some point. Robin, let me tell you one quick story if I have time. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, okay, thank you. You're so delightful, and thank you again for allowing me to be on your podcast. So I worked at at MSNBC as an executive producer, and we were in war coverage. I had never done war coverage, and I had to train myself, and they just threw me into it, and I had no idea what I was doing. And Lester Holt, you know Lester Holt? No, he okay, he was like the primary anchor at NBC News for like 25 years, very famous anchor, NBC News, totally respected throughout the industry. And because I didn't know what to do, we we rushed into the control room and there were people there, and I'm the executive producer, but I really don't know what I'm doing. I'm supposed to be pushing buttons and all this stuff. Lester Holt starts reading the teleprompter copy. And I had been in the control room a week earlier training, and it sounds like what he's reading is exactly what was being read a week ago. Yeah, not an update to the story, the same copy. Yeah, and then he reads the second story, and all of a sudden the director turns to me as if I'm, you know, I'm at a loss. It's my first time ever doing this, and I got no training. Yeah, and he goes, Is this the right copy? And the teleprompter operator, who's about a 22-year-old kid, puts his heart in the room and says, Oh my gosh, I loaded last week's copy. Yeah. So here we are, Lester Holt, who's exalted. I mean, he's like the greatest thing ever. He's all all this integrity, credibility, and he's reading last week's news. Uh-huh. Oh no. And I'm the executive person, so it's my fault. Anyway, they they throw it a break and they figure it out, and for the next three hours, it went okay. Yeah. All right. Now, now I gotta go outside and apologize. I gotta go outside the studio and meet Lester Holt in the hallway and tell him, you know, we've never even met, ever, even to this point. Never met him. I go up to him and I say, Lester, I'm so terribly sorry about what happened at the top of the show. I am new here, but I'm responsible. It was my fault. I didn't say anything about a young kid, tell her, I'm not gonna blame you. I'm responsible. Right. And I was expecting him to say, Look, you're never working here again.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I, you know, he would yell and scream, and I was ready for it. I was ready to be demoted or fired. Yeah. He said, and I said, I'm Andy Regal, and I told him I'm sorry, it won't. Yeah, he said, Andy, these things happen. He goes, It's very hectic. You are running into the control room, you know. Just, you know, follow your uh your other colleagues, follow their lead. You'll get it. I'm sure you're here for a reason, you'll do better, it'll work out, but follow the he gave me all kinds of advice. It was just about a minute, minute and a half. Yeah, he was totally supportive, totally, you know, kind, generous, understanding. Shook hands and he walked away. Yeah, and we worked together again a few other and it went fine. But it was a minute and a half conversation that he would never remember. I'll remember it forever. Absolutely. That's you know, that's our because right, and and I made sure I was inspired to do better, but he easily could have berated me, screamed at me for humiliating him. Absolutely not. That's what we need more of in this world and in our workplaces, absolutely, because that's how you get loyalty and devotion. And I I haven't seen Lester since then. I mean, since I worked there. And again, he wouldn't remember it, but I will remember him forever. He retired recently, and I only wish him well because he was an inspiration to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that story. And again, what is the name of your coaching business?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. So if people would like to reach me, if they're suffering, all they can the easiest thing to do is go to Andy Regal, A-N-D-Y-R-E-G-A-L, Andy Regal.com. They can have a free consultation. If they think I can be helpful, great. If they want to stay on their own, this there's no hard sell. But I love talking to bullying victims and I love helping bullying victims and because we can help each other. So that's something they can do. My book, if you don't mind me mentioning it, is called Surviving Bully Culture. And then the subtitle is A Career Navigating Workplace Bullying and a Guide for Healing, because there's all kinds of information about how to heal. And so we're here, we're here to help. You're not alone. I love this podcast because you're right. I love the title of your podcast. It's all about healing, and it is, so that we can go on with our lives, appreciate the people that love us and care for us, because that's the thing I say. Don't let one person, don't let one bully overwhelm you and forget who you are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, your friends love you, they care about you, your family does. And so I allowed the bully to overtake everything about me. And we we can't continue to allow that to happen. And so if we advocate and we work, we're gonna change this one office and one person at a time, and we can really make a difference together with the work that you're doing, Robin.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much, Andy. And it has been such a pleasure having you on here again. And it's always a fun time, even though we're talking about some traumatic events, but it still somehow is enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's all about healing, and I appreciate it because these conference, these uh conversations help me heal too. And I really hope it helps the audience. So thanks to you as well.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem. And again, I'm Robin Black, and this is It's All About Healing Podcast. Everyone, stay blessed.